Re: (Dismissed) Kyongdong Program Investigation

Dromoda Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:44 am

New Tarajan wrote:
Dromoda wrote:
Marquette (of Pacific) wrote:
Great Eurussia wrote:
Marquette (of Pacific) wrote:Ah, but it is a weapon of mass destruction, which is why the bill was proposed to the Council.

Personally, we [Marquette] think the Kyongdong program is a deplorable mission by the world's warmongering countries to avoid international resolutions passed in order to keep the world a safe, peaceful place. The need for such a powerful bomb is simply not there in this day and age. People, we live in a time where peaceful solutions are almost always taken by developed, sophisticated nations, so it is really telling of the geopolitical rank of the participant states.

Not to mention, that every nation can do this program or a kind of this program on their own. So what's the hype? :-D

Let me put it to you straight and see if you understand.

The peaceful countries of the world, like Marquette and Aloia, don't want belligerent nations such as Texania and Eurussia to be creating immensely powerful weapons of mass destruction that may or may not be used against them in the future, because we don't want to waste money on creating new forms of expensive weapons. As New Tarajan has already said, this will start an arms race whose effects will be devastating! This is not what we want for our world.

what if a private industry is first in discovering the powers of anti-matter. then every nation should watch out.

think of the problems you get

Luckily, existing laws clearly refers not only to countries, but to every kind of organization. So, the problem should not occur at all. Also, the power of anti-matter for civilian use-only it's not a problem. We are talking exclusively about the military use of it.

what about behind door research?

and what if they sell it to terrorists?

New Tarajan Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:45 am

This is a problem that also nuclear, chemical and biological weapons have.
And this is the reason why every country has its own intelligence/security agencies, and the World Alliance has the WADSJ.

Marquette (of Pacific) Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:46 am

Dromoda wrote:
Marquette (of Pacific) wrote:Deuterium may not be on the periodic table of the elements, but it is an isotope of Hydrogen, which sure as heck is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium

good sir. its not on the periodic table.
so i can conclude that the research on this material is not finished. and is needed the same treatment as the Kyongdong program.

so you should investigate it.

or you could conclude that a not yet totally discovered material is used in a "may be" bomb and not see the economical and defensive reasons of this. and surely conclude that we are gonna keep the research for ourselves.

Are you kidding? It may not be on the table of the elements, but it's still a chemical!!

You're right, I don't see the economical or defensive reasons for this, because there aren't any! You don't need to defend yourself with a megabomb, and there's no reason to shoot it at crap in space.

Dromoda Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:49 am

Marquette (of Pacific) wrote:
Dromoda wrote:
Marquette (of Pacific) wrote:Deuterium may not be on the periodic table of the elements, but it is an isotope of Hydrogen, which sure as heck is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium

good sir. its not on the periodic table.
so i can conclude that the research on this material is not finished. and is needed the same treatment as the Kyongdong program.

so you should investigate it.

or you could conclude that a not yet totally discovered material is used in a "may be" bomb and not see the economical and defensive reasons of this. and surely conclude that we are gonna keep the research for ourselves.

Are you kidding? It may not be on the table of the elements, but it's still a chemical!!

You're right, I don't see the economical or defensive reasons for this, because there aren't any! You don't need to defend yourself with a megabomb, and there's no reason to shoot it at crap in space.

i am sorry but i see it more likely that asteroids or other objects could crash into our world than an arms race with.... some aggressive nation...( please tell me. )

and no ofcource i don't need to defend myself with a mega bomb. my army is big enough to invade most of the region.

i want this more as an defense mechanism to defend all of us against object from space.

Europe and Asia Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:49 am

To be clear, and this is only for you to answer if you have actual, scientific facts to back it up (I.e.: not posting "it's not a chemical!")

Is deuterium a chemical or an element?

Texania Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:50 am

Everything is a chemical. I am guessing we should ban Bullets, Knifes, and wooden clubs as well?

Europe and Asia Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:50 am

Dromoda wrote:
Marquette (of Pacific) wrote:
Dromoda wrote:
Marquette (of Pacific) wrote:Deuterium may not be on the periodic table of the elements, but it is an isotope of Hydrogen, which sure as heck is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium

good sir. its not on the periodic table.
so i can conclude that the research on this material is not finished. and is needed the same treatment as the Kyongdong program.

so you should investigate it.

or you could conclude that a not yet totally discovered material is used in a "may be" bomb and not see the economical and defensive reasons of this. and surely conclude that we are gonna keep the research for ourselves.

Are you kidding? It may not be on the table of the elements, but it's still a chemical!!

You're right, I don't see the economical or defensive reasons for this, because there aren't any! You don't need to defend yourself with a megabomb, and there's no reason to shoot it at crap in space.

i am sorry but i see it more likely that asteroids or other objects could crash into our world than an arms race with.... some aggressive nation...( please tell me. )

and no ofcource i don't need to defend myself with a mega bomb. my army is big enough to invade most of the region.

i want this more as an defense mechanism to defend all of us against object from space.

You just changed the rationale for the weapon. You stated previously it was for national defense.

Marquette (of Pacific) Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:53 am

Dromoda wrote:
Marquette (of Pacific) wrote:
Dromoda wrote:
Marquette (of Pacific) wrote:Deuterium may not be on the periodic table of the elements, but it is an isotope of Hydrogen, which sure as heck is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium

good sir. its not on the periodic table.
so i can conclude that the research on this material is not finished. and is needed the same treatment as the Kyongdong program.

so you should investigate it.

or you could conclude that a not yet totally discovered material is used in a "may be" bomb and not see the economical and defensive reasons of this. and surely conclude that we are gonna keep the research for ourselves.

Are you kidding? It may not be on the table of the elements, but it's still a chemical!!

You're right, I don't see the economical or defensive reasons for this, because there aren't any! You don't need to defend yourself with a megabomb, and there's no reason to shoot it at crap in space.

i am sorry but i see it more likely that asteroids or other objects could crash into our world than an arms race with.... some aggressive nation...( please tell me. )

and no ofcource i don't need to defend myself with a mega bomb. my army is big enough to invade most of the region.

i want this more as an defense mechanism to defend all of us against object from space.

Of course, and those intentions are by no means what we are opposed to. What we are opposed to is the fact that a few nations will have such immense power to wield.

You never know if there may be an arms race or not, but it's better not to take our chances. There was a cold war and a nuclear arms race in the last century, and it was terrifying for everyone involved. The threat of being incinerated is not what we want for our civilians.

This region is plagued by wars and conflicts, what is to say that next time there is a world war, nations won't use these weapons for their cause?

Great Eurussia Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:23 pm

Spoiler:

With due respect to the Court, does this mean that every time it pleases, it can initiate an investigation at will? And outright order 'sovereign independent nations' to stop whatever their doing? Isn't it infringing their sovereignty?

Eurussia still doesn't see any legality on all of these. Much more legal grounds to initiate an investigation and worst, issue an order to stop an international undertaking. Isn't this partiality and unfairness on the part of the Court?

Furthermore, isn't a court, like local courts nor world courts, will only act after a 'complaint'??? Therefore, can the Court justify that it acted upon a complaint?

And since the Court, technically, only acts based on the powers granted by the same sovereign nations, can it cite a law where it was explicitly granted powers to initiate an investigation on 'sovereign' nations?

If it is indeed just an interpretation of a law, can the Court satisfy us all that it has been granted explicit powers that while doing an investigation (assuming it is legal), it can stop 'sovereign nations' from performing their sovereign powers?

Eurussia seeks only detailed and complete clarification from the Court of Justice to satisfy us and the rest of the community of nations for us to recognize this investigation if it is indeed have legal grounds.

Ivania Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:47 pm

Spoiler:

Great Eurussia wrote:
Spoiler:

With due respect to the Court, does this mean that every time it pleases, it can initiate an investigation at will? And outright order 'sovereign independent nations' to stop whatever their doing? Isn't it infringing their sovereignty?
Eurussia still doesn't see any legality on all of these. Much more legal grounds to initiate an investigation and worst, issue an order to stop an international undertaking. Isn't this partiality and unfairness on the part of the Court?
Furthermore, isn't a court, like local courts nor world courts, will only act after a 'complaint'??? Therefore, can the Court justify that it acted upon a complaint?
And since the Court, technically, only acts based on the powers granted by the same sovereign nations, can it cite a law where it was explicitly granted powers to initiate an investigation on 'sovereign' nations?
If it is indeed just an interpretation of a law, can the Court satisfy us all that it has been granted explicit powers that while doing an investigation (assuming it is legal), it can stop 'sovereign nations' from performing their sovereign powers?
Eurussia seeks only detailed and complete clarification from the Court of Justice to satisfy us and the rest of the community of nations for us to recognize this investigation if it is indeed have legal grounds.

The COJ has been given this power, it is in the very constitution that we are to protect. With an international organization looking to violate the laws that we are sworn to defend. It is our right to "investigate" anything that may or may not be breaking international law. Some of these investigations you even put into motion. The legality of this investigation is right there in the constitution. "The Court of Justice is the sole judiciary and law interpreter of the World Alliance " this is not a question if sovereignty or legality it is a question of trying to defend your harmful program that could end our world as we know it.

Great Eurussia Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:07 pm

Ivania wrote:
Spoiler:
The COJ has been given this power, it is in the very constitution that we are to protect. With an international organization looking to violate the laws that we are sworn to defend. It is our right to "investigate" anything that may or may not be breaking international law. Some of these investigations you even put into motion. The legality of this investigation is right there in the constitution. "The Court of Justice is the sole judiciary and law interpreter of the World Alliance " this is not a question if sovereignty or legality it is a question of trying to defend your harmful program that could end our world as we know it.

Eurussia is indeed glad to see Ivania actively engaging in this forum. However, with much disbelief, we must reject such interpretation of the honorable Court to initiate an 'investigation.' Why?

1) The Constitution only says 'judicial power' which we believe would basically mean to judge and weigh things when a complaint comes in on the face of a probable cause. Hence, doesn't even constitute an 'investigation.'

2) The Constitution only says 'interpreter of laws' which we will not debate on how this should be done since in every court of law, an interpretation only comes due to a case or whenever, if any, a non-court member asks for a clarification of law. However, we will not refute if the Court itself will initiate an interpretation at will since the words in the Constitution are vage yet clear. But such doesn't constitute an 'investigation.'

3) Did the Constitution say that the Court can explicitly initiate an investigation (which in real life are done by the executive branch) much more order a sovereign state to stop whatever it is doing? If we clarify it, it is obvious that these are beyong the judicial power and interpretation power granted by the Constitution? Right?

We respectfully seek more clarification from the Court.

New Tarajan Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:51 pm

If I can intervene, with due respect of the Court, there's one point I wish to underline Eurussia seems to forget, in his arguments.
Yes, the Constitution refers to the Court as the sole "judicial power and law interpreter of the World Alliance"...and here, you object that "judicial power" doesn't mean the power to investigate, too.
But here is the mistake: because a judicial power without investigative powers is, simply, a non-sense. How the CoJ could issue its verdicts, without a preliminar investigation and analysis of evidences? Since the World Alliance lacks a specific office with such a mandate (I'm planning, however, to do a law on this probably), the CoJ is responsible for both functions. It's simply in the nature of its role inside the World Alliance.

Also, as President of the Council, I officially issue a complain to the Court about the decision of Eurussia and Dromoda to proceed with their test.

Europe and Asia Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:51 am

Your complaint is noted. Furthermore, the court will issue its findings in a memorandum soon.

Great Eurussia Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:41 am

New Tarajan wrote:If I can intervene, with due respect of the Court, there's one point I wish to underline Eurussia seems to forget, in his arguments.
Yes, the Constitution refers to the Court as the sole "judicial power and law interpreter of the World Alliance"...and here, you object that "judicial power" doesn't mean the power to investigate, too.
But here is the mistake: because a judicial power without investigative powers is, simply, a non-sense. How the CoJ could issue its verdicts, without a preliminar investigation and analysis of evidences? Since the World Alliance lacks a specific office with such a mandate (I'm planning, however, to do a law on this probably), the CoJ is responsible for both functions. It's simply in the nature of its role inside the World Alliance.

Also, as President of the Council, I officially issue a complain to the Court about the decision of Eurussia and Dromoda to proceed with their test.

Eurussia understands the position of New Tarajan but misses our point. Of course, a Court is 'investigating' in principle during a case, which emanates from a complaint. But it is different when the Court 'initiate an investigation on its own' without a complaint. Correct us if we are wrong.

Planitan Commonwealth Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:44 am

Spoiler:

Remind me where does it say that Court is banned from investigating without a compliant?

Great Eurussia Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:51 am

Planitan Commonwealth wrote:
Spoiler:
Remind me where does it say that Court is banned from investigating without a compliant?

Again, we are not saying that the Court is banned, Eurussia is merely clarifying from the Court where does that "investigative powers at will" comes from. Since we have never had a court of law much more seen any court in the world, that the judicial branch has initiated an investigation on its own will.

If such justification is not clarified, there is no reason for Eurussia to recognize much more participate in an international investigation without legal basis that could violate a sovereign state'a sovereignty.

Europe and Asia Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:30 pm

Great Eurussia wrote:
Planitan Commonwealth wrote:
Spoiler:
Remind me where does it say that Court is banned from investigating without a compliant?

Again, we are not saying that the Court is banned, Eurussia is merely clarifying from the Court where does that "investigative powers at will" comes from. Since we have never had a court of law much more seen any court in the world, that the judicial branch has initiated an investigation on its own will.
If such justification is not clarified, there is no reason for Eurussia to recognize much more participate in an international investigation without legal basis that could violate a sovereign state'a sovereignty.

You're looking for exact wording Eurussia. If our entire legal system was based on exact wording, nothing would every get done.

New-Zealand Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:11 pm

I think this is up to the RP moderators (ALOIA and SHIROUMA) to decide. As far as I can see, the main objection to the Kyongdong Program is the Overpowered "God Modding" nature of it. Therefore, it is up to the RP Moderators to decide whether or not the RP should be allowed to continue, or should be here forth declared void.

I personally (As forum moderator) think it should be made void.

Great Eurussia Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:17 pm

New-Zealand wrote:I think this is up to the RP moderators (ALOIA and SHIROUMA) to decide. As far as I can see, the main objection to the Kyongdong Program is the Overpowered "God Modding" nature of it. Therefore, it is up to the RP Moderators to decide whether or not the RP should be allowed to continue, or should be here forth declared void.

I personally (As forum moderator) think it should be made void.

OOC: I will definitely object on it. Since I'm pretty sure that the Kyongdong Program which aims to develop a new technology above the current nuclear one (which I myself won't call it as anti-matter or whatever since I'm not familiar on that) is far more realistic in our RP standards than those of the 'flying ships' and 'elevator to space' RP that we have let passed and left neglected or ignored. I won't allow the Kyongdong Program to be scrapped unless those unrealistic RPs are scrapped too :-)

Ireland Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:21 pm

Dromoda closed the KP if you havent noticed

Great Eurussia Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:49 pm

Great Empire of Ireland wrote:Dromoda closed the KP if you havent noticed

Yeah it is over. We announced it first. Then Dromoda :-)

New-Zealand Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:42 pm

Great Eurussia wrote:
New-Zealand wrote:I think this is up to the RP moderators (ALOIA and SHIROUMA) to decide. As far as I can see, the main objection to the Kyongdong Program is the Overpowered "God Modding" nature of it. Therefore, it is up to the RP Moderators to decide whether or not the RP should be allowed to continue, or should be here forth declared void.

I personally (As forum moderator) think it should be made void.

OOC: I will definitely object on it. Since I'm pretty sure that the Kyongdong Program which aims to develop a new technology above the current nuclear one (which I myself won't call it as anti-matter or whatever since I'm not familiar on that) is far more realistic in our RP standards than those of the 'flying ships' and 'elevator to space' RP that we have let passed and left neglected or ignored. I won't allow the Kyongdong Program to be scrapped unless those unrealistic RPs are scrapped too :-)

By all means I too share your beliefs. I personally believe all those things you've named should be scrapped by the RP Moderators. I also believe the Kyongdong Program should be scrapped with them.

New Tarajan Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:23 pm

It's impossible to scrap the entire Program at this point. Too many consequences have been caused by it, and we cannot simply scrap them out, at this point.
Also, I wish to answer to the objections of NZ about the airships and the orbital elevator: both of them are ancient ideas; moreover, and this is the most important thing, their existence does not pose a threat for strategic balance or, simply, for the safety of other States as a dark matter bomb.

Great Eurussia Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:09 pm

New Tarajan wrote:It's impossible to scrap the entire Program at this point. Too many consequences have been caused by it, and we cannot simply scrap them out, at this point.
Also, I wish to answer to the objections of NZ about the airships and the orbital elevator: both of them are ancient ideas; moreover, and this is the most important thing, their existence does not pose a threat for strategic balance or, simply, for the safety of other States as a dark matter bomb.

lol regardless of how ancient they are, if its not in line with the RP, it must be scrapped indefinitely :-D

Or bring it to the Future Tech News :-)

Great Eurussia Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:11 pm

Europe and Asia wrote:Your complaint is noted. Furthermore, the court will issue its findings in a memorandum soon.

OOC: lol seriously? A memorandum for a questionable investigation when no one was participating to be investigated? Where would this Court get its illegal findings? (No offense please) What would be the result?

* face palm

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